Top 25 teams Whats up with LSU???

[Cotnerdude]

Harris Poll USA Today Computer Rankings BCS
TEAM RK PTS % RK PTS % A&H RB CM KM JS PW % COMP AVG BCS AVG PRVS
1 Ohio State
2 LSU
3 Oregon
4 Kansas
5 Oklahoma
6 Missouri
7 West Virginia
8 Boston College
9 Arizona State
10 Georgia
11 Virginia Tech
12 Michigan
13 Connecticut
14 Texas
15 Florida
16 Hawaii
17 USC
18 Auburn
19 Virginia
20 Boise State
21 Clemson
22 Alabama
23 Penn State
24 Tennessee
25 Kentucky

Ok the Big 12 has 4, 5, and 6 but how is LSU #2???

Thats a bunch of crap...

[spoonraker]

What are you confused about? LSU is 8-1 and they've been solid throughout the entire season with a decent schedule.

[Cotnerdude]

Normally when a team has a really close game and beat ALABAMA 41 to 34 you go down in the polls...

[David]

no, because they still won.the bcs is an overly complicated formula. you get poitns for winning and you get poitns for wining big. But you dont' get get extra points for killing a team.

so you have to think that they aren't going to lose points for winning.

[Cotnerdude]

Its just that LSU has been just hardly winning games this season and that they dont have a schedual to compare to teams like oregan. You better beleave they wont hold #2

[ADV1]

Like #4 Kansas has a hard schedule???

[Cotnerdude]

I am not saying that but look at oregans....

[Cotnerdude]

Look at oklahoma, Mizz

[toom1h]

Oklahoma has only lost to colorado, has had only a mildly strong schedule. And Colorado has a decent team, and playing at home, jeeeez they do good.

[Cotnerdude]

Thats just the big 12 though upsets happen a lot. It is a really strong conference.

[coop]

Thats just the big 12 though upsets happen a lot. It is a really strong conference.

rofl.....



(sec or go home)

[Cotnerdude]

3 out of the top 10 are big 12 teams SEC has Georgia I will give you that I like the old bulldogs they were unstopable back in the day.

[coop]

3 out of the top 10 are big 12 teams SEC has Georgia I will give you that I like the old bulldogs they were unstopable back in the day.

yeah but 7 out of 25 are sec teams (thats over half of all the teams in the sec are in the top 25 in the nation)

[David]

Oregon is number 3... 3 more games left this year. woot

[Cotnerdude]

I like a lot of what the SEC does there all about speed. They always have the best defense in the country. I think they rely a little to much on the RB and HB without establishing the run game they lose a lot of there rep. I really think Mizz will suprise everybody there offense is incredable though

[coop]

Oregon is number 3... 3 more games left this year. woot

im a huge sec fan....but oregon should be #2 and not lsu

[spoonraker]

I like a lot of what the SEC does there all about speed. They always have the best defense in the country. I think they rely a little to much on the RB and HB without establishing the run game they lose a lot of there rep. I really think Mizz will suprise everybody there offense is incredable though

NCAA 08 isn't real life josh :P

[David]

Oregon is number 3... 3 more games left this year. woot

im a huge sec fan....but oregon should be #2 and not lsu

I honestly think Oregon can push through before the end.

[Cotnerdude]

Spoon of course its not but check stats next time ok

[spoonraker]

haha I'm just kidding, it's just funny that we were talking about the SEC division while playing last time and Justin kept trying teams from there and they were all ungodly fast and then you post that

[Cotnerdude]

that was so much crap... it worked for his offense witch is kind of wierd if you ask me

[spoonraker]

Justin's play calling is just whack. It doesn't really get him anywhere it just annoys the crap out of everybody. His defense is tough as **** though.

We need to play more people and less computer to get better though.

[Cotnerdude]

yes we do agreed

[s13curtis]

kansas will lose this weekend to OSU, so that'll knock those douchebags out of the top 10.

[David]

^^ yup.

[82355]

The only thing worse than Cotnerdudd's spelling, is his understanding of college football. . . . . . . .

Martin

[spoonraker]

lol I can't defend his football but he can't type because one of his fingers is in a cast after he nearly sliced it off

[Cotnerdude]

I told people that I couldnt spell.... but time will tell and yoiu will see and oh kansas will only lose if if they let pressure of being undeated get to them...

[dunnster76]

Kansas for a national championship in football would be awesome, I'm just not seeing it as likely. Even as much as I would like it to happen.

[spoonraker]

Don't say that. If a Kansas team has to go to a championship I would want KSU to go.

The KU mascot is just the absolute gayest thing in the world. Growing up in Kansas I had to deal with the GayHawk being plastered on EVERYTHING and I've grown to hate KU simply because of their ugly colors and gay mascot.

[Cotnerdude]

I am sayin if they are undefeated at the end of the season I might have to make a big 12 championship roadtrip again. Whos commiin to texas with me???

[spoonraker]

I'll come, but only if you wear the cowboy outfit from Halloween

[Neversatisfied]

Kansas will lose to Missouri and/or Oklahoma in the Big 12 Championship.

The SEC is tough. Thats why a 1 loss LSU team is #2 in the country. Oregon is #3 because the Pac 10 is a tough conference also. Both teams play extremely tough schedules and beat alot of good teams so far.

[Cotnerdude]

We will see wont we.. but all the same, your gonna be wrong.

[dunnster76]

Don't say that. If a Kansas team has to go to a championship I would want KSU to go.

The KU mascot is just the absolute gayest thing in the world. Growing up in Kansas I had to deal with the GayHawk being plastered on EVERYTHING and I've grown to hate KU simply because of their ugly colors and gay mascot.

The Fighting Manginos FTW ... I don't know how ESPN got started on that, but they mention that just about every time Kansas is mentioned for football.

[Cotnerdude]

Soo what your saying is your coming to texas for the big 12 championship with us right...

[dunnster76]

Umm ... doubtful ... I have enough trips I've been on this year already.

[David]

http://www.bearplugs.com/prodimg/ahc-10168.gif

[dunnster76]

Oregon ... has decent uniforms and is sponsored by Nike and gets whatever they can dream up. That's about it.

[Cotnerdude]

I honeslty always thought that exact same thing.

[Neversatisfied]

Dennis Dixon is a hell of a player. With him on the field, I think Oregon can beat LSU, Ohio State, Oklahoma, or whoever.

[dunnster76]

Dennis Dixon is in the heisman race only because other great talents have been inconsistent this year, there are many players that are much better than him, but their teams haven't helped them and they have struggled because of it.

[coop]

Dennis Dixon is in the heisman race only because other great talents have been inconsistent this year, there are many players that are much better than him, but their teams haven't helped them and they have struggled because of it.

hiesman is not only personal stats but also being a leader etc etc....and dixon is that

[dunnster76]

Put Dixon in Baylor and he wouldn't be in the race, involving win/losses into the Heisman is the biggest bullshit move ever, the Heisman is an individual achievement award. Your team letting you down shouldn't hinder your chances to win it. The best player is still the best player. There are so many aspect of college football that ESPN has too much influence on ... watch ESPN a couple weeks before the Heisman ceremony, they'll do their best to sway voters and often time are successful.

[coop]

how well your team does and being the quarterback who leads a team has a lot to do with how well you are individually...

[dunnster76]

QBs can't make the receivers catch the ball ... Keller knew that all too well, QBs can't get their running backs to run for that first down or even gain yards on a play, they can't help the defense shut down the opposing team, they just have control of a small portion of the game. Their leadership can help the offense stay motivated, but he can't do it all, his talent can't carry the whole team ... unless you're Vince Young, but he even had a lot of help around him.

[Cotnerdude]

^ So true, thats why a QB is going to when it this year.

[spoonraker]

A QB only allows other players to do their jobs. A bad QB can really cripple a team, but a good QB can't carry a team, only give them the ability to play well.

[86Shelby]

A QB only allows other players to do their jobs. A bad QB can really cripple a team, but a good QB can't carry a team, only give them the ability to play well.

So, in other words QBs are like spark plug wires?

[spoonraker]

Exactly!

[coop]

A QB only allows other players to do their jobs. A bad QB can really cripple a team, but a good QB can't carry a team, only give them the ability to play well.

So, in other words QBs are like spark plug wires?

ha

[dunnster76]

It doesn't take a good QB to hand off the ball to an awesome running back. And it doesn't take a good QB to run an offense, a mediocre QB with talent surrounding him can go a long ways.

[Thunder]

Theres a reason why most Heismann winners end up being busts in the NFL. Vince Young and Carson Palmer are the only 2 that don't totally suck and have won the award.

[dunnster76]

Meh ... I wouldn't claim Vince Young hasn't busted in the NFL just yet.

[Thunder]

He already was apart of a huge rally last year, to get the titans to 8-8 from being what 1-7?

[s13curtis]

The titans will probably be decent in the next couple years or so, they keep getting better. Lendale White has become a solid #1 running back, and their defense isn't too shabby.

[coop]

so graham harrell should get heisman if its all just individual performance

[dunnster76]

I could live with that.

[coop]

im saying hes not even in teh running...thats how you know that hiesman is more than just individual performance...its leadership and game changing performances

[dunnster76]

I didn't say the Heisman is all about individual performances, but it should be, it's an individual award. But like a lot of things in college football, it's broke and has been for a while, with no clear efforts made to be fixing it.

[coop]

i just consider leadership as an individual characteristic that can only be measured in team success

[dunnster76]

Yeah, but the lack of team leadership can't be judged in a teams success. You can have great team leadership on a losing team.

[Neversatisfied]

Dennis Dixon is in the heisman race only because other great talents have been inconsistent this year, there are many players that are much better than him, but their teams haven't helped them and they have struggled because of it.

To say Dixon shouldn't be considered for the Heisman by his personal perfomances isn't a great arguement, or even close to a reasonable arguement. He makes plays with his legs, his arm, he doesn't turn the ball over, and he requires the defenses to change their game plan to watch him alone. Its hard to argue these stats:

20 passing TDs with 3 INTs. Thats 6.67 TDs for every 1 INT. 67.9 completion percentage. 8.43 yards per pass attempt. QB rating of 163.1(I didn't even know the QB rating went that high). 549 yards rushing on 103 attempts which is good for 5.3 yards per carry. 8 rushing TDs. 0 fumbles lost.

Did I mention his team is 8 and 1? I would love for you to post up some stats and why this guy shouldn't be in the running Dunnster. I mean **** he has accounted for 28 TDs and has 3 turnovers.(9.33 TDs per turnover lost) He accounts for 280 yards and slightly over 3 TDs per game. Do you have any valid arguements as to why he shouldn't be in the running, or are you just trying to be a hater? I'd love to hear anything you have to say with some stat based arguements.

[spoonraker]

^ winner

[Neversatisfied]

If you want to give the Heisman to the most outstanding college player, give it to Jake Long of Michigan. He has not been flagged for a single pentalty all year long, has not given up a sack all year long, has blocked for a 100 yard rusher every week this year, and has blocked for a 200 yard passer every week this year. And he plays argueably the most important position in football. Without a left tackle blocking your blind side, your QB is toast, your rushing game is nothing, and you don't score points.

But the Heisman doesn't go to a offensive lineman, ever. It goes to someone that plays a glory position that is paved the way by guys like Jake Long. Guys like Jake Long are the guys that don't get the noteriety, but they do everything right. He will be rewarded, but it won't be with the Heisman. It will be with the #1-#5 draft pick and a big contract that will include millions of dollars.

I think offensive lineman are the most under appreciated people on the field by the fans, and in my opinion the most important players on the field. Just an opinion though.

[Thunder]

I think offensive lineman are the most under appreciated people on the field by the fans, and in my opinion the most important players on the field. Just an opinion though.

QFT... playing the line is a very technical position and in addition to having the size and agility to play, you gotta be pretty damn smart because you have to have the ability to recognize whats going on with the front 7 and adjust accordingly.

[Neversatisfied]

I think offensive lineman are the most under appreciated people on the field by the fans, and in my opinion the most important players on the field. Just an opinion though.

QFT... playing the line is a very technical position and in addition to having the size and agility to play, you gotta be pretty damn smart because you have to have the ability to recognize whats going on with the front 7 and adjust accordingly.
That being said what do you think of Jake Long's season looking at it from a neutral perspective? 0 sacks allowed, and 0 penalties all season, blocking for a 100 yard rusher and a 200 yard passer every week? All I can say is:


:eek2smiley:

[Thunder]

Impressive to say the least. He should get the big bucks in the NFL, for a lineman.

[coop]

but we are talking athlete.....they are physcially out of shape, cant run, and their job is to be immobile....if we give an offensive line the hiesman we might as well give 70% of the american population the hiesman

[spoonraker]

LMAO

there is much more to being an offensive linemen then just being big and holding your ground, but that still made me laugh

[Thunder]

but we are talking athlete.....they are physcially out of shape, cant run, and their job is to be immobile....if we give an offensive line the hiesman we might as well give 70% of the american population the hiesman

you've gotta be kidding me....... i see no yellow font, therefore, i'm to assume you are not....

[coop]

theres a reason that its not considered a "skills" position

[Thunder]

no comment. The heismann may be geared towards skill position players, but its retarded to think that the job of the line is to be immobile, while they are "out of shape" and "can't run"

All the good lineman coming out of college, could probably cut a high 4 second 40 yard dash. On top of that, how in the WORLD do you figure they have to be immobile, especially on toss or sweep plays??? The option??? Do you realize how many counter and trap plays that require lineman to pull from their position to run to the side of the play and take out a linebacker??

jeez..

[dunnster76]

R0FL ... have you ever seen a lineman out of uniform, they're not even close to out of shape 90% of the time. Their core is ****ing stout, they can deadlift/squat/bench small houses and are still agile for their size. They're the most under rated position on the field.

[coop]

yeah i bet 70% of americans would agree with you two.....

[Thunder]

I'd bet more on you not knowing what the hell you're talking about.

[coop]

I'd bet more on you not knowing what the hell you're talking about.

i mean cmon....i know that it takes strength and good footwork to be a lineman....but seriously....if they were really athletic they would be running down the field every play jumping up with a 40 vertical or sidestepping opponents making them fall....or even launching a football in between defenders 50 yds to a reciever in stride....

if you say that an offensive lineman deserves a hiesman over a skills position player then i think its you not knowing what the hell you're talking about

[Thunder]

Football can't have a team of 4 QBs, 4 RBs and 3 WR. Thats just not how it works.

[Thunder]

Besides, QBs can be out of shape and still be great. You being a Kentucky fan, should know that. WRs can't because their position is solely based on speed... with the ability to catch often overlooked.

[coop]

Football can't have a team of 4 QBs, 4 RBs and 3 WR. Thats just not how it works.

1 quarterback goes against 11 players
1 running back goes against 11 players
1 wide receiver goes against 1-6 players
1 offensive lineman goes against 1 player

If a player can perform AND go against the majority of the team then thats a great individual performance....if an offensive lineman keeps one guy off the qb there are 3-6 more that get to the qb he doesnt even defend them...

[spoonraker]

Nobody is saying that an offensive linemen is going to, or even should win the Heisman, but you're an idiot for thinking that the only things required to be a good OLB is size.

I'm about 5'10'' or 11'', and I weigh 270+lbs, I'm also 20 years old, according to you I would be a good OLB for a college team. Line me up against an average college defensive linemen and I'll get run over. Linemen aren't just fat, they are incredibly strong and have great awareness, well good ones anyway.

[Thunder]

OLB = outside linebacker.

[coop]

Nobody is saying that an offensive linemen is going to, or even should win the Heisman, but you're an idiot for thinking that the only things required to be a good OLB is size.

I'm about 5'10'' or 11'', and I weigh 270+lbs, I'm also 20 years old, according to you I would be a good OLB for a college team. Line me up against an average college defensive linemen and I'll get run over. Linemen aren't just fat, they are incredibly strong and have great awareness, well good ones anyway.


when good jokes go wild

270+ at 5'11" is bodybuilder numbers....maybe thats a better fit since you dont think you would do good in football

[dunnster76]

1 quarterback goes against 11 players
1 running back goes against 11 players
1 wide receiver goes against 1-6 players
1 offensive lineman goes against 1 player

Not quite ... with people doing their jobs ...

1 QB unless running or the pocket breaks down goes against no one, if running or under pressure maybe 1-2 players.

1 running back goes against 1 player when blocking, or maybe 1-4 when running the ball ... some players are blocked or otherwise out of the play.

1 wide reciever goes against 1-3 players, how often have you seen the whole secondary on one reciever?

1 offensive lineman goes against 1-3 players, they block for screens and so forth which require more than one block maybe, they don't just key on one player each play, their job is to protect against anyone who may be close to screwing up the play.

[coop]

i dont know whens the last time ive seen an offensive line block more than one person....maybe he comes back and blocks the guy that originally gets by him.....

i guess when i played football (yes long time ago) i NEVER played line...so i am just an idiot...

[dunnster76]

So in your eyes an offensive lineman just blocks the same guy the whole play? What happens if the guy he is blocking falls down, does he just stand there with no one to block?

[coop]

So in your eyes an offensive lineman just blocks the same guy the whole play? What happens if the guy he is blocking falls down, does he just stand there with no one to block?

usually he will turn around and clip someone else....look at penatlies...75% of penalties in a game are false starts, holding, and illegal blocks in the backs by lineman

[dunnster76]

Ever stop to think what their job is ... trying to stop a guy of equal size and strength by basically standing in front of him. Linemen aren't allowed to grab the jerseys, block in the back and so forth, but still stop the defensive player. It's quite a task.

Most other positions you're either trying to run away/through someone, keep up with someone and make sure they don't catch the ball, throw the football accurately, tackle the person with the ball. And what rules are there against those people? Don't grab the facemask, you can't hit the receiver past the line of scrimmage, no late hits ... some of those rules also apply to linemen as well, so linemen have multiple penalties they could be flagged for at any time when the majority of the rest of the team only have to worry about a thing or two. Another reason why linemen have to have a some smarts.

[coop]

so all this being said....you think that 1 offensive lineman should get the hiesman at any point in history?

i could only think of one ever being nominated....and he broke records that year....

[spoonraker]

Nobody is saying that an offensive linemen is going to, or even should win the Heisman, but you're an idiot for thinking that the only things required to be a good OLB is size.

I'm about 5'10'' or 11'', and I weigh 270+lbs, I'm also 20 years old, according to you I would be a good OLB for a college team. Line me up against an average college defensive linemen and I'll get run over. Linemen aren't just fat, they are incredibly strong and have great awareness, well good ones anyway.


when good jokes go wild

270+ at 5'11" is bodybuilder numbers....maybe thats a better fit since you dont think you would do good in football

Uhmm...what?

I'm a fatass. You assume that because I'm big I would do good as a linemen. In actuality, I would get run over by an average college defensive linemen. The difference between me and a real linemen is practice, experience, and training. This backs up the "there is more to being a linemen than being fat" position.

[coop]

5'10" is TINY for offensive line...and 270 is nothing special either...nowadays lineman are 6'5" and 330

[Neversatisfied]

So in your eyes an offensive lineman just blocks the same guy the whole play? What happens if the guy he is blocking falls down, does he just stand there with no one to block?

usually he will turn around and clip someone else....look at penatlies...75% of penalties in a game are false starts, holding, and illegal blocks in the backs by lineman
Which makes Jake Long's performance this year even more impressive. Not a single holding/false start/illegal block penalty all year long, and hasn't given up a single sack. Not to mention he has blocked the QBs back side allowing a 200 yard passer each game(half of which came by a true freshman QB), and paving the way for a 100 yard rusher every game this year.

[Neversatisfied]

Nobody is saying that an offensive linemen is going to, or even should win the Heisman, but you're an idiot for thinking that the only things required to be a good OLB is size.

I'm about 5'10'' or 11'', and I weigh 270+lbs, I'm also 20 years old, according to you I would be a good OLB for a college team. Line me up against an average college defensive linemen and I'll get run over. Linemen aren't just fat, they are incredibly strong and have great awareness, well good ones anyway.


when good jokes go wild

270+ at 5'11" is bodybuilder numbers....maybe thats a better fit since you dont think you would do good in football

Uhmm...what?

I'm a fatass. You assume that because I'm big I would do good as a linemen. In actuality, I would get run over by an average college defensive linemen. The difference between me and a real linemen is practice, experience, and training. This backs up the "there is more to being a linemen than being fat" position.
Another major thing in being a lineman is footwork and body control. Linemen don't just stand there and push someone. Alot of their tecnique is in the legs.


5'10" is TINY for offensive line...and 270 is nothing special either...nowadays lineman are 6'5" and 330
There are some defensive linemen that are about that size, but just about all of the offensive linemen in the league are 6' 2" at least. . I know there is 1 guy that plays for Denver at defensive tackle is like 5' 10", 260 lbs.

[spoonraker]

Ok well the point is I'm fat, but untrained and I don't have any experience. Somebody of comparable size to me who is a skilled linemen would run me over.

[coop]

. I know there is 1 guy that plays for Denver at defensive tackle is like 5' 10", 260 lbs.

yeah defensive guys are smaller....im talking about offensive lineman....


and im sorry about the joke....i just think its funny that an offensive lineman would be considered more important than a qb....i know they all work together yada yada yada...just sayin

[Cotnerdude]

Bottom line is a QB will win again this year. PERIOD.

[coop]

Bottom line is a QB will win again this year. PERIOD.

thank you

[Neversatisfied]

I don't think that was ever in question in this discussion. I was saying if the Heisman went to the most dominant player in the nation, it would probably go to Jake Long. There hasn't been much talk about the Heisman going to anyone other than a QB for a couple weeks when Mike Hart got injured, and McFadden's team kept losing.

If I were a Heisman voter, I would cast my vote for Dennis Dixon. I posted why on page 4.

[Cotnerdude]

I am not arguring that but why the hell are you debating over a lineman???

[Neversatisfied]

"The Heisman Memorial Trophy Award (often known simply as the Heisman Trophy or The Heisman), named after former college football player and coach John Heisman, is awarded annually to the most outstanding collegiate football player in the U.S."

Quoted from Wikipedia about The Heisman Trophy.

What I am saying is an offensive lineman fits the bill this year, but has no chance to win. By the definition of the trophy, Jake Long should be in the running as he is the most dominant player in the country. The description for the Heisman Trophy should be changed to say "Awarded annually to the highest profile offensive collegiate football non lineman player on a highly ranked team."

The trophy has only been awarded to 1 defensive player ever, but this defensive player also returned punts/kicks, and he also took reps on offense.

[coop]

yea charles woodson

[Cotnerdude]

"What I am saying is an offensive lineman fits the bill this year, but has no chance to win."
-Thats all you need to say there isnt a point after this...

[dunnster76]

I didn't doubt that a QB would win Heisman, I just argued that the Heisman isn't given to the best player in the nation most years by giving too much weight on the player's team and how well they do. Then the lineman got thrown out, someone tried talking it down, so I had to set the story straight and highlight just how important lineman are.

[coop]

again...it goes back to leadership.....not much of a role with one offensive lineman...

[Cotnerdude]

I understand line are imprtanr but you can have team with one less lineman and you cant without a QB I think that is such an advantage. Noramlly they are the ones who have to set the tone and tempo for the game. They are the ones that have to lead beside worring about blocking people, thinking about running the ball not fumbling, looking for an open player, have an eyebehind he head.... the list goes on and just doesnt compare

[dunnster76]

You can't play the game with one less lineman, you'd get a penalty for not enough guys at the line of scrimmage, let alone the defense would be in the backfield before the QB.

again...it goes back to leadership.....not much of a role with one offensive lineman...

So leading a team is all about making plays? You can't be a team leader in anything but a "Skills" position? R0FL! Have you ever been in a locker room with a football team? Sometimes team leaders don't even get that much playing time, aren't typical star positions, team leaders can be anyone who motivates the team to play as a cohesive unit, to play to their full potential, is the guy who picks their hearts up out of the dirt after a loss and gets the rest of the team focused on next week, the guy who helps teammates get that last inch up while trying to max out in bench, the guy who steps up after coach at half time to get the troops riled up and ready to go out and dominate the 2nd half ... team leadership goes far beyond the field and game clock.

[coop]

You can't play the game with one less lineman, you'd get a penalty for not enough guys at the line of scrimmage, let alone the defense would be in the backfield before the QB.

again...it goes back to leadership.....not much of a role with one offensive lineman...

So leading a team is all about making plays? You can't be a team leader in anything but a "Skills" position? R0FL! Have you ever been in a locker room with a football team? Sometimes team leaders don't even get that much playing time, aren't typical star positions, team leaders can be anyone who motivates the team to play as a cohesive unit, to play to their full potential, is the guy who picks their hearts up out of the dirt after a loss and gets the rest of the team focused on next week, the guy who helps teammates get that last inch up while trying to max out in bench, the guy who steps up after coach at half time to get the troops riled up and ready to go out and dominate the 2nd half ... team leadership goes far beyond the field and game clock.

but that doesnt matter since you think that leadership doesnt matter....only individual numbers....you made a good arguement for me though....

[dunnster76]

I don't think it matters, cause leadership isn't a quality that the Heisman voters can really judge.

[coop]

I don't think it matters, cause leadership isn't a quality that the Heisman voters can really judge.

other than by team success

[dunnster76]

Which is only a portion of leadership, that's why I don't like how they base part of the judging on it.

[Cotnerdude]

I think the QB has a lot more on his shoulders them any other player. End of story.

[Neversatisfied]

I think the QB has a lot more on his shoulders them any other player. End of story.The Center and the middle linebackers have a little bit of responsibilty on their shoulders as well. The Center is considered the QB of the offensive line.

[coop]

The Center is considered the QB of the offensive line.

rofl

[dunnster76]

I think the QB has a lot more on his shoulders them any other player. End of story.

The QB gets way too much credit for what he does. The team is just that, a team, all the players are important and the team would fail without any of them. So saying one player is more important than any of the others is silly, cause one person doesn't make or break a team.

[Cotnerdude]

I think I am right.

[dunnster76]

If the QB throws a pass, he gets the credit for throwing it, the receiver gets a little credit for catching it, but the line doesn't get much if any credit for blocking for the QB allowing him to see the open receiver and give him the time to make the pass, the other players in the backfield get no credit for blocking, or keeping the defense thinking run, setting up the ability for a successful pass play, the other receivers get no credit for blocking, or taking up defenders, all the glory goes to the QB and sometimes the receiver catching the pass. It's all a team effort on every play, even when it seems one player is more responsible for a plays success, it's still a team effort, blocking was inevitably involved, the defense has to cover other threats. The QBs position is important, but no more important than any other one on the field. It's sickening how much credit they get.

Big Uglies(linemen)>QB

[coop]

there is an importance of lineman...they are just not good individually (heisman definition)....they work together...and NO MATTER WHAT....if the qb holds the ball for any length of time the defensive line is hunting him down...you would think that a good offensive lineman could hold them for at least 10 seconds....

[Cotnerdude]

:lol: 10 seconds is more than they normally do. I understand offensive lineman have more restrictions than deffensive, and I get that threre important but the fact of the matter is. Like coop said they are just not good individually (heisman definition).

[dunnster76]

Most QBs aren't good individually either. Why take most of the QBs mentioned for the Heisman and put them on lets say Utah State, do you think they would be good? No ... it's still a team effort. There are a lot of people supporting a Heisman candidate that don't get credit. Whether the Heisman candidate be a RB or QB, the offensive line really helps them out. So saying anyone on the football team is good individually is not really a true statement. Put them on the football field by themselves and where would they be? On the ground.

As far as the O-line holding out defenders for 10 seconds, I laugh, that's an absurd amount of time. Take a stop watch to film of most QBs, they don't usually hold on to the ball for that long. It's insane to think that anyone could stop someone of similar size/speed/athletic ability without holding them or blocking them in the back for more than 5 seconds. 5 seconds is still a lot of time.

I'll fight this to the death, football is a team sport. There's no I in team, coaches teach this for a reason, no one player on the field is more important than the other. The team fails if one player fails, whether a lost block leads to a sack, a botched route leads to an incomplete pass, a underthrown ball leads to an interception ... the list goes on. Evaluating one player as more important or more talented than another position on the field is useless, they have different responsibilities.

A lineman will never win the Heisman and I understand that, but it doesn't mean they're not deservant of it. There are O-line guys who are just as talented at their position as Dennis Dixon is at his. They just don't get the credit for it cause they're not out scoring touchdowns, they're behind the scenes allowing them to score the touchdowns.

[coop]

i wouldve said orlando pace was better than 2 of the 3 ppl that beat him in 1996....but still wouldve come second

[Cotnerdude]

I get what your saying dunn but at the same time the QB also has to be able to scramble, and while I understand the offensive line is very important. I just dont think that they would ever deserve hiesman over a great QB. I have seen some QB just straight out take 4 offensive lineman by running skill and quickness. The same thing happens to offensive lineman some deffsive players can run around them by speed, reaction and awarness. It just happens to whoever. So I have a hard time seeing that a lineman would get it over a QB. I see your point and dont think I am being harsh I do understand that the line is important and football is a team game. I am on the other end. I dont think they will ever deserve to win hesiman sorry.

[spoonraker]

Why would a QB take out offensive linemen?

yeah...I called you out on that :p

[Cotnerdude]

I said by running skill and quickness meaning juking and making them move around or doing somthing stupid, not hit straight on

[dunnster76]

A lineman will never win the Heisman and I understand that, but it doesn't mean they're not deservant of it.

What I'm trying to prove is that it's unfair to judge a QB or any other position over another, it's a team sport. End of story.

I know how the Heisman works and I don't agree with a lot of aspects of it, but I'm not going to change a prestigious award by posting on this forum. I played O-line in HS and I'm sick of them getting no respect by those who think QBs are gods of the football field. They're not, they may be talented, but there is lots of other talent on the field, you've just got to judge talent by what they're expected to do in their particular position, not by passing/rushing yards or even points scored.

[spoonraker]

^agreed

A linemen can put up heisman numbers and barely get noticed.

It's unfair, but never going to change.

[Cotnerdude]

I think they egt to much credit. You are right there I get it. I think can judge players over other players by watching them in games. I dont think think that a lineman is hesiman worthy though at the same time.

[dunnster76]

And why aren't they Heisman worthy? They don't score enough points? Can't throw a touchdown pass? Aren't allowed to catch passes? Had to defend a monster, but still managed to stop him from sacking the QB?

[4 cam torino]

Even Brady and Manning throw more INT's when pressure is applied. A bad O line can make a good QB look real bad real fast. Likewise, a bad QB with a slow release that can't move the slightest bit and thus gets himself sacked a lot can make a great O line look really bad really fast.

I remember, I believe it was on the 01 Miami team. One of the O lineman had NEVER allowed a sack throughout his entire HS and college career. I bet he's still in the NFL. How many people mention him when they talk 01 Miami? A guy like that should win the Heisman, he keeps the QB from getting sacked and makes holes for the RB. He should get some credit for every TD pass thrown that wasn't thrown off a screen and for every rushing TD that came to his side.

[4 cam torino]

Bryant McKinnie would be the O lineman I was referring to. I was wrong about HS, he played D line in HS, so, really I was right, he allowed no sacks, because he wasn't even doing the blocking so he couldn't allow them. But he didn't allow any sacks in college. He plays for Minnesota now. I do believe they have an Oline that is very beneficial to the running backs that get the pleasure of running from behind them.

[coop]

and yet it takes 5 of them to get the job done

[Neversatisfied]

Bryant McKinnie would be the O lineman I was referring to. I was wrong about HS, he played D line in HS, so, really I was right, he allowed no sacks, because he wasn't even doing the blocking so he couldn't allow them. But he didn't allow any sacks in college. He plays for Minnesota now. I do believe they have an Oline that is very beneficial to the running backs that get the pleasure of running from behind them.Most people consider Minnesota's O line the best run blocking line in the NFL.

[dunnster76]

and yet it takes 5 of them to get the job done

Yeah ... cause how many guys are coming at them? Oh that's right, most of the defense.

[coop]

and how many qbs do you have? oh thats right 1.....but same amount of guys going for him

[dunnster76]

I've got no response, I think you're just trying to keep this argument going. I've got little else to say.

[coop]

answer this for me....if oregon wouldve had lost one lineman last night would they have lost the game?

[dunnster76]

There's no telling ... maybe.

[coop]

well you can at least say that none of the offensive lineman of oregon deserve the heisman because they cant block and none have the ability to rally the team back...

[spoonraker]

lol I love how you keep this thread alive and people just can't leave it alone, they have to argue with you. I put in a couple early replies, but it's apparent that this is going nowhere

[dunnster76]

I agree ... none of the Oregon team deserves the heisman.

[coop]

lol I love how you keep this thread alive and people just can't leave it alone, they have to argue with you. I put in a couple early replies, but it's apparent that this is going nowhere

"In addition to incredible personal statistics, team achievements play a heavy role in the voting - a typical Heisman winner represents a team that had an outstanding season and was most likely in contention for the national championship at some point in that season."

just sayin....

[David]

arguing that their aren't key players on the field is retarded. There is a reason that some players at the professional level get paid more than others. There is a reason some players get picked over others in the drafts.. Not all players are equal... some stand out and are superior athletes. Linemen are support players not role players. you dont' see lineman getting kick backs from nike or have their face on the cover a of ESPN etc. The players that make the difference in a game our the QB's, running backs, wide rec, TE's. On some teams you even have deff. players that are in key roles...

the reality is you can swap a lineman here and there and not see a difference in a team's performance but if you swap a QB all of a sudden you can go from a losing season to a winning one or the other way around.

say what you want... key players exist and they aren't on the line...

OR would have won last night with their "winning" QB.

[spoonraker]

I agree with most of that, however I have to say, I have seen linemen on commercials a few times :)

[4 cam torino]

How many interceptions did Peyton Manning throw last week after you swapped out 3 of his linemen? Yeah, linemen are completely interchangeable, the back ups are every bit as good as the starters, lol.

[Neversatisfied]

I agree that if Dixon were on the field, Oregon would have won that game. Dixon carried that team, and showed how important he was as soon as he got injured. Without him, Oregon couldn't move the ball. He is probably the MVP of college football. Whether that is Heisman worthy or not, only the Heisman voters will decide.

[Cotnerdude]

Yeah trhey losy bercause of no dixon

[coop]

but qbs are not important....offensive line are whats important

[Thunder]

but qbs are not important....offensive line are whats important

you are not baiting.

[coop]

yes i forgot the (no serious) tag