Creationism

[dave]

Cannot be called a science.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/12/BAQT129NMG.DTL&tsp=1

amen.

[82355]

How could anyone with at least half of a functioning brain have ever thought it was science.

[88alltrac]

im confused.
so they are accepting books that talk about christianity unless it say "the only thing that is important is that God made everything"
sorry ADD couldnt read the whole thing

[Cotnerdude]

im confused.


Whats new?

[88alltrac]

im confused.


Whats new?

:bored1: do i even know you? or do you know me?
i dont really post in these kind of threads so it cant be from past arguments.

[coop]

creationism is religion....should stay in religion class....

[fmstruck]

Are you 100% sure that evolution/big bang is correct?

[dave]

no

[millertime]

nobody is sure, so should the origins of the universe even be taught?

[David]

Can't prove much of anything.

[82355]

nobody is sure, so should the origins of the universe even be taught?

I don't ever remember it being taught as absolute fact.

Martin

[David]

"theory"

[dave]

It has more scientific merit than magic.

[millertime]

nobody is sure, so should the origins of the universe even be taught?

I don't ever remember it being taught as absolute fact.

Martin

That's how it came across when I was in middle school, at a catholic middle school that is, so maybe that's why they taught it that way?

[dave]

nobody is sure, so should the origins of the universe even be taught?

I don't ever remember it being taught as absolute fact.

Martin

That's how it came across when I was in middle school, at a catholic middle school that is, so maybe that's why they taught it that way?

They never explained to you the definition of the word theory? Or did they not call it the theory of evolution?

[millertime]

they didn't explain ****, science was really pretty much a joke there, our txt books were like 15 years old.

[dave]

they didn't explain ****, science was really pretty much a joke there, our txt books were like 15 years old.

Damn, that really sucks. I didnt have the best education, I went to lincoln high...but i took some interesting classes like zoology and genetics.

[David]

nobody is sure, so should the origins of the universe even be taught?

I don't ever remember it being taught as absolute fact.

Martin

That's how it came across when I was in middle school, at a catholic middle school that is, so maybe that's why they taught it that way?

They never explained to you the definition of the word theory? Or did they not call it the theory of evolution?


Thats devil talk right there.

[millertime]

they didn't explain ****, science was really pretty much a joke there, our txt books were like 15 years old.

Damn, that really sucks. I didnt have the best education, I went to lincoln high...but i took some interesting classes like zoology and genetics.

that's cool, i went to north star for highschool, I got to take history of rock, and intro to guitar playing and a few other classes that they introduced there before anywhere else.

[coop]

Are you 100% sure that evolution/big bang is correct?

100% sure evolution happened and happens today......its a fact.....i dont see how big bang which to this point is unprovable is tied with something that is proven though

[David]

Are you 100% sure that evolution/big bang is correct?

100% sure evolution happened and happens today......its a fact.....i dont see how big bang which to this point is unprovable is tied with something that is proven though


but still unproven... still missing a missing link (bigfoot?) to show evolution is the the cause of man.

[82355]

Wow, you are playing Devil's advocate right, David? I hope no one smart enough to use a computer is stupid enough to believe that evolution isn't real.

Martin

[David]

Wow, you are playing Devil's advocate right, David? I hope no one smart enough to use a computer is stupid enough to believe that evolution isn't real.

Martin


"Theory".

[82355]

It is close enough to fact for anyone with a brain.

Martin

[coop]

Science definition of Theory = Fact (aka theory of gravity)

Common usage of Theory = Hypothesis, opinion.


Please DO NOT confuse the two. Evolution IS Fact. It is proven every day. I did evolution studies on Viruses in grad school (which evolve over hours/days since they have large replication rates).

There are many examples of your "Missing link" in the form of fossils. Heard of "Lucy" or "Java Man?" People who say there is no missing link says theres no complete in between primates and Humans but evolution doesnt always work that way. We have no idea which environmental factors, competition took place which would change our idea of what would be a "missing link"

[coop]

And again, Evolution is real. Sad if you don't believe fact.

[BOORAH]

Agreed

[David]

Science definition of Theory = Fact (aka theory of gravity)

Common usage of Theory = Hypothesis, opinion.


Please DO NOT confuse the two. Evolution IS Fact. It is proven every day. I did evolution studies on Viruses in grad school (which evolve over hours/days since they have large replication rates).

There are many examples of your "Missing link" in the form of fossils. Heard of "Lucy" or "Java Man?" People who say there is no missing link says theres no complete in between primates and Humans but evolution doesnt always work that way. We have no idea which environmental factors, competition took place which would change our idea of what would be a "missing link"


Coop i understand that evolution is real.

[coop]

u said "theory" like its some peoples opinion. It is scientific fact. That is my only point.

grouping evolution with big bang is just as stupid as grouping evolution with god giving us the one cell organism. Evolution is a process. Big Bang is not, its a single event.

[David]

u said "theory" like its some peoples opinion. It is scientific fact. That is my only point.

grouping evolution with big bang is just as stupid as grouping evolution with god giving us the one cell organism. Evolution is a process. Big Bang is not, its a single event.


i 100% agree.

[coop]

Evolution is fact aka scientific theory. We evolved from apes, them from monkeys, monkeys from rodents, etc.

Origin of life is speculation. Many different common usage theories on the origin of life.


(this was to fmstruck or whatever orginally....then david since he said evolution is speculative)

[David]

If it's fact that man evolved from Apes than all reglion is false.

[dave]

......crickets ...........

[coop]

If it's fact that man evolved from Apes than all reglion is false.

It is a fact. Using genetic information we can identify who our closest ancestors are. I do not know how to say it differently.


As for religion, for christians at least, The Bible is full of "stories" to teach love, understanding, forgiveness, fear, and other emotions. They are like an episode of Full House or the Jerry Springer show, not to be taken literally because they are fake but there IS a message to be learned after watching them.

[David]

If it's fact that man evolved from Apes than all reglion is false.

It is a fact. Using genetic information we can identify who our closest ancestors are. I do not know how to say it differently.


As for religion, for christians at least, The Bible is full of "stories" to teach love, understanding, forgiveness, fear, and other emotions. They are like an episode of Full House or the Jerry Springer show, not to be taken literally because they are fake but there IS a message to be learned after watching them.


You don't have to say it diffently coop.

While the bible might be a book full of stories, i can't say i ever attended a church who taught these stories but left out the God, creation, adam/eve, gold plates etc parts.

[dave]

If it's fact that man evolved from Apes than all reglion is false.

It is a fact. Using genetic information we can identify who our closest ancestors are. I do not know how to say it differently.


As for religion, for christians at least, The Bible is full of "stories" to teach love, understanding, forgiveness, fear, and other emotions. They are like an episode of Full House or the Jerry Springer show, not to be taken literally because they are fake but there IS a message to be learned after watching them.


You don't have to say it diffently coop.

While the bible might be a book full of stories, i can't say i ever attended a church who taught these stories but left out the God, creation, adam/eve, gold plates etc parts.

It seems there are some things you need to not believe so that you arent an idiot.

These things include among many others: adam and eve, talking snakes, zombie jews, rapture, and noah's arc.

[David]

If it's fact that man evolved from Apes than all reglion is false.

It is a fact. Using genetic information we can identify who our closest ancestors are. I do not know how to say it differently.


As for religion, for christians at least, The Bible is full of "stories" to teach love, understanding, forgiveness, fear, and other emotions. They are like an episode of Full House or the Jerry Springer show, not to be taken literally because they are fake but there IS a message to be learned after watching them.


You don't have to say it diffently coop.

While the bible might be a book full of stories, i can't say i ever attended a church who taught these stories but left out the God, creation, adam/eve, gold plates etc parts.

It seems there are some things you need to not believe so that you arent an idiot.

These things include among many others: adam and eve, talking snakes, zombie jews, rapture, and noah's arc.


lol...

So when are the apes at the zoo going to give birth to the next human? i'd like to be present.

[dave]

If you sincerely believe thats how it works then I feel sorry for you. And I suggest you go read up or try not to get into discussions of things you have no comprehension of.

[David]

no, but I figure you could get from my post what im poking at. maybe i should dip my post in yellow before tossing it up?

[dave]

I guess I dont understand what you are trying to get at. Is that a rebuttal to my post?

[David]

connecting a chimp that walked upright more often that other chimps something over 3 million years ago to humans doesn't sound like fact to me. Sounds like wishful thinking.

[coop]

chimps are 96+% genetically IDENTICAL to us. There are many instances of short RFLP (restiction fragment length polymorphisms) aka short but important coding/reading frames of DNA that are indifferentiable. So I would say that chimps give birth to 96% human babies all the time.

And yes, that is not how it works david. Evolution takes hundreds of generations not just one. If you can't accept that you were derived from an ape I am sorry. I would go out on an a limb and say that you think its because you are superior and god made animals for you to eat, pet, and look at in cages.

Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. (serious). It is a great read and discusses the leavers and the takers which would work really well in this discussion. (btw the book is not slanted at all, just a different perspective).

[coop]

bipedalism was seen as an advantage to hunt and evade predators. It has arose i think 3-4 times in different species not just apes to humans

[David]

chimps are 96+% genetically IDENTICAL to us. There are many instances of short RFLP (restiction fragment length polymorphisms) aka short but important coding/reading frames of DNA that are indifferentiable. So I would say that chimps give birth to 96% human babies all the time.

And yes, that is not how it works david. Evolution takes hundreds of generations not just one. If you can't accept that you were derived from an ape I am sorry. I would go out on an a limb and say that you think its because you are superior and god made animals for you to eat, pet, and look at in cages.

Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. (serious). It is a great read and discusses the leavers and the takers which would work really well in this discussion. (btw the book is not slanted at all, just a different perspective).

I"ll give the book a read sometime after school.

I have no problem believing i derived from an ape, i just think it has holes in it, kinda like adam/eve. Coop if it's all fact then exactly which species of ape did man evolve from?

[coop]

by man i assume you mean homo sapiens sapiens and if thats the case:

homo sapiens neandertalensis or commonly known as the "neanderthal'

from then going back:
Homo sapiens archaic
H. erectus
H. habilis
Australopithecus robustus
A. africanus
A. afarensis
A. anamensis
A. ramidus

[coop]

the direct lineage from apes to humans is misleading since the world is vast and many of these ancestors overlapped in their existance. A. gahri is an example of a misplaced member who might actually lead to the human line and not the other astralopithicus members

[David]

can i see any of these in a zoo?

btw, i am googling many of the things posted above to re-familiar myself with this information. I'm pretty sure the science classes i've taken had at best 1 chapter regarding this topic.

[dave]

This might explain some things for you David.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0

[coop]

can i see any of these in a zoo?

no, why should you? You must be unfamiliar with evolution processes. One is natural selection.

Lets say lets go back a few thousands of years. The neaderthal was the most fit and competitive organism of its time. It was able to outcompete its predescesor and which ultimately led to its predescesors demise. Due to random mutations, envrionmental factors evolution led to Homo Sapiens Sapiens (with a small overlap in time with neaderthals). This new species was faster, smarter and ultimately outcompeted the neaderthal and led to its demise.

[David]

but wouldn't any of those be more advanced than a chimp? who has survived and can be found in my local zoo?

[coop]

but wouldn't any of those be more advanced than a chimp? who has survived and can be found in my local zoo?

todays chimps were most likely not chimps millions of years ago when the divergence happened. You must remember that chimps too evolved over those same millions and millions of years.

and btw, is this serious david?

[David]

kinda not really. I just felt like making you and dave work this morning. I'm avoiding working on my paper.

[Thunder]

my cousin is donkey kong
Posted via Mobile Device

[coop]

when i say we are derived from "apes" i mean we all come from a common ancestor...not we evolved and they didnt....we are all in the ape family....look at your family tree

[David]

^^ all the proof i need.

[coop]

we do come from "apes" though....as we are all in the ape family like i just said, humans, chimps, gorillas, orang utans, etc

people often think that "ape" is the "ape" we see today....its a common misunderstanding

[82355]

My daddy aint no ****in monkey.

[fmstruck]

Wow, haven't checked this for a while. I see I did it again. I should have separated my question into two separate ones to ward off some confusion, but in light of the original post that started this thread, unless you can prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution is the way we arrived at who we are today, I would say that both should be taught or at least accepted as possibilities since we can't ask anyone who was there. I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God created everything either, though that theory commends itself to me. If that makes me an idiot, well, so be it. I posed the question because it seems like there's a growing consensus in the world in general which says, "If you believe in God you are a retard." You will not ever hear me insult another person's intelligence just because they don't agree with my world view.

[dave]

Wow, haven't checked this for a while. I see I did it again. I should have separated my question into two separate ones to ward off some confusion, but in light of the original post that started this thread, unless you can prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution is the way we arrived at who we are today, I would say that both should be taught or at least accepted as possibilities since we can't ask anyone who was there. I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God created everything either, though that theory commends itself to me. If that makes me an idiot, well, so be it. I posed the question because it seems like there's a growing consensus in the world in general which says, "If you believe in God you are a retard." You will not ever hear me insult another person's intelligence just because they don't agree with my world view.

You're in the 90% majority so please don't try to pretend like you are chastised for your beliefs. Is it hard being a white male too? It is still against the law in some states for an atheist to hold public office in some states.

Creationism can be taught in a theology class, I dont think anyone here would be opposed to that. But passing it off as a science is "retarded". It doesnt make sense as a science because it does not follow the scientific method, and does not pass simple scientific standards.

[MadmaX]

while we're talking about being white and evolution... which race is the most "evolved" so to speak, or rather, furthest from ape?

[David]

i bet i can guess who's closest. Now thats just fkd up right?

[MadmaX]

"genetic questions that nobody wants to know the answer to"

[82355]

You ought to see the hair on my ass crack, I think I am the missing link.

Martin

[coop]

while we're talking about being white and evolution... which race is the most "evolved" so to speak, or rather, furthest from ape?

all humans are genetically identical.....and are all homo sapiens sapiens....environmental factors are what makes us physically different....but i am sure you are joking

[coop]

unless you can prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution is the way we arrived at who we are today.

u serious? i just did....and i can do it again.....what started "life" is speculative at this point....but there is numerous studies/experiements that show the evolutionary path from single cell to humans (remember we are not the end all result....some people forget that..everything that is living is daily subjected to evolution)

[dave]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/08/19/eagorilla119.xml
kinda sad. They carry with them for weeks.

[coop]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

even the vatican accepts that evolution happens....

[dave]

americans are just STUBBORN. and 'we' take pride in how stubborn we are. its a sign of character when you refute science because it goes against your preconceived beliefs.

[82355]

I am more stubborn then most, but I KNOW evolution is real.