timing question...

[swaggy853]

So I was riding around with a friend tonite trying to help tune under boost. The car was bogging hardcore so i kept throwing timing at it until it felt reasonable. I ended up running about 44 degrees@7psi before it started pulling in vtec. the fact that its just under 9:1 compression makes me feel better about it but damn that seems like a lot of timing. I maintained the a/f around mid/high 11s.

Does that sound like a lot to anyone else? Am I just bein a pussy? This is really my first time playin around with timing maps. Normally with my stuff I'm not afraid to break **** but in this case id rather not. I just checked my old h22 datalogs and it was running around 35 degrees@8psi when I was logging at krp last summer; I kept that more reserved since it was a 10.6:1 motor.

[CrazyPete]

id say thats too high of timing we need more details of the motor?

[s13curtis]

It depends solely on the motor, but wow that seems way too high. I'd say there's another problem besides timing. Maybe a bad knock sensor. You weren't getting any knock at 44 degrees????? I wouldn't be messing with that unless you know what you're doing.

[Jasen]

Stock cams? That's an asston of timing.
I know with aftermarket cams you have to raise where the VTEC kicks in or it will bog when it does if you leave it in the stock location.

[DSMMIKE]

holy **** id love to see 20 degrees on my car

[swaggy853]

It depends solely on the motor, but wow that seems way too high. I'd say there's another problem besides timing. Maybe a bad knock sensor. You weren't getting any knock at 44 degrees????? I wouldn't be messing with that unless you know what you're doing.

ummm, from what i have read i dont believe in honda knock sensors so yeah, doesnt exist. The only thing a knock sensor will do is throw limp mode if it hits a certain point, which is often inconsistant. There is no way of actually monitoring knock with it.

Stock cams? That's an asston of timing.
I know with aftermarket cams you have to raise where the VTEC kicks in or it will bog when it does if you leave it in the stock location.

Stock cams. The same is true with stock cams, I put about 40 degrees into the crossover point just to keep my head from hitting the dash when vtec hit cause it bogged so bad at first. It was bogging around 36ish, i stopped at 40 when the crossover point became smooth. It still doesnt have the crazy pull when it crosses over like it should.

[Coupelx]

what is the base timing set at?

i am lucky to see 20 total under boost on my 2.3t. hondas have a much better combustion chamber design so timing requirements are lower.

also are you pulling timing at the onset of boost and them ramping it back up?

[sweatygrundle]

make sure the ecu is synked up with the car the ecu may think its at 44 but if the distributor is in wrong place you could be actually getting less.

[swaggy853]

i havent touched the base timing.

[swaggy853]

make sure the ecu is synked up with the car the ecu may think its at 44 but if the distributor is in wrong place you could be actually getting less.

I have "table ignition" and "actual ignition" in the datalogs, so that should tell me if its off.

[sweatygrundle]

sense my tdc mark on my balancer is 10 degrees off my base timing has been 10 degrees off throwing all my timing off. hopefully when i get the ecu fixed this pos will be alittle less slow

[swaggy853]

get that **** done....

[sweatygrundle]

actual ignition. i would bet is like mine on my aem. it takes your table ignition and factors in all the igniton modifying factors such as with my car N2O and the advance it gives in vtec, and knock.

when i adjusted my cams before, i didnt touch my dizzy and what my ecu said the actual timing was was 4degrees off then what i was getting at the flywheel

[s13curtis]

ummm, from what i have read i dont believe in honda knock sensors so yeah, doesnt exist. The only thing a knock sensor will do is throw limp mode if it hits a certain point, which is often inconsistant. There is no way of actually monitoring knock with it.


you totally misunderstood what i was saying. I wasn't asking if you were relying on the knock sensor to monitor knock, that's just ludicrous. I meant are you using a knock lite or something to monitor knock. Or a datalogger....anything...And I was implying that a bad knock sensor can do all kinds of ****....make it run rich or lean or throw off the timing curve really bad too.

[sweatygrundle]

ummm, from what i have read i dont believe in honda knock sensors so yeah, doesnt exist. The only thing a knock sensor will do is throw limp mode if it hits a certain point, which is often inconsistant. There is no way of actually monitoring knock with it.


you totally misunderstood what i was saying. I wasn't asking if you were relying on the knock sensor to monitor knock, that's just ludicrous. I meant are you using a knock lite or something to monitor knock. Or a datalogger....anything...And I was implying that a bad knock sensor can do all kinds of ****....make it run rich or lean or throw off the timing curve really bad too.

i'm not sure if im stupid for doing this but thats the reason i still have the knock sensor wire just haning behind my ecu not hooked up to ****

i will eventually get it hooked up w/aturbo but it will just be used to monitor i'm not setting it up to change anything

[s13curtis]

Yea it's usually best to get an aftermarket knock sensor, or at least a GM knock sensor. You really don't want to just leave it unhooked though if you're still relying on your stock ECU and using a piggyback or something.

[sweatygrundle]

no, i have an aem plug and play. it doesnt need it to run. but when i do hook it up i can set it to take out any amount of timing or and fuel when it does knock. i just have to set up the ecu to know when it is knocking and when it just running. but sense i'm still na and only on a small shot of spray i'm not worried about it now

[swaggy853]

ummm, from what i have read i dont believe in honda knock sensors so yeah, doesnt exist. The only thing a knock sensor will do is throw limp mode if it hits a certain point, which is often inconsistant. There is no way of actually monitoring knock with it.


you totally misunderstood what i was saying. I wasn't asking if you were relying on the knock sensor to monitor knock, that's just ludicrous. I meant are you using a knock lite or something to monitor knock. Or a datalogger....anything...And I was implying that a bad knock sensor can do all kinds of ****....make it run rich or lean or throw off the timing curve really bad too.

I have no means of monitoring knock.

[Coupelx]

no, i have an aem plug and play. it doesnt need it to run. but when i do hook it up i can set it to take out any amount of timing or and fuel when it does knock. i just have to set up the ecu to know when it is knocking and when it just running. but sense i'm still na and only on a small shot of spray i'm not worried about it now


why would you pull fuel, or for that matter do anything with fuel upon detonation :dunno:

[turbodaytona87]

too rich can cause knocking too

[sweatygrundle]

no, i have an aem plug and play. it doesnt need it to run. but when i do hook it up i can set it to take out any amount of timing or ad fuel when it does knock. i just have to set up the ecu to know when it is knocking and when it just running. but sense i'm still na and only on a small shot of spray i'm not worried about it now


why would you pull fuel, or for that matter do anything with fuel upon detonation :dunno:

misstyped it. it was supposed to be "add fuel"

[sweatygrundle]

hell i could make the thing roll my windows down when ever it knocks

[turbodaytona87]

hell i could make the thing roll my windows down when ever it knocks

hook it up to the horn, that'd let you know pretty quick

[sweatygrundle]

hell i could make the thing roll my windows down when ever it knocks

hook it up to the horn, that'd let you know pretty quick

:rofl:
that would work pretty good. but the horn is already reserved for my wicked v-takkk

[turbodaytona87]

like the horn output is wired to the v-tec solenoid? or it honks when v-tec is engaged?:lol:

[sweatygrundle]

honks with v-tec engaged. gota let everyone know when its game over for them
:rofl:

[turbodaytona87]

hey just checking, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done it

[torque_addict]

what is the base timing set at?

i am lucky to see 20 total under boost on my 2.3t. hondas have a much better combustion chamber design so timing requirements are lower.

also are you pulling timing at the onset of boost and them ramping it back up?

yes, hondas have better combustion chamber design, but the main reason that they can run all that advance is because with dohc you can advance/retard the intake and exhaust cams seperately. with the 2.3t you have one cam and therefore if you advance the timing ur messing with both intake and exhaust.

[Coupelx]

what is the base timing set at?

i am lucky to see 20 total under boost on my 2.3t. hondas have a much better combustion chamber design so timing requirements are lower.

also are you pulling timing at the onset of boost and them ramping it back up?

yes, hondas have better combustion chamber design, but the main reason that they can run all that advance is because with dohc you can advance/retard the intake and exhaust cams seperately. with the 2.3t you have one cam and therefore if you advance the timing ur messing with both intake and exhaust.your confusing cam timing with ignition timing. i know they affect eachother but not to the extreme that is being discussed.